Friday, October 18, 2013

Future Directions 3

The Tea Party's attempt to stand in the way of history was an embarrassing and inevitable failure.  The classical Greeks, however, told us in many writings that this would happen.  Here is one example:

"But as soon as a new generation has succeeded and the democracy falls into the hands of the grandchildren of its founders, they have become by this time so accustomed to equality and freedom of speech that they cease to value them and seek to raise themselves above their fellow-citizens, and it is noticeable that the people most liable to this temptation are the rich. So when they begin to hanker after office, and find that they cannot achieve it through their own efforts or on their merits, they begin to seduce and corrupt the people in every possible way, and thus ruin their estates. The result is that through their senseless craving for prominence they stimulate among the masses both an appetite for bribes and the habit of receiving them, and then the rule of democracy is transformed into government by violence and strongarm methods. By this time the people have become accustomed to feed at the expense of others, and their prospects of winning a livelihood depend upon the property of their neighbours; then as soon as they find a leader who is sufficiently ambitious and daring, but is excluded from the honours of office because of his poverty, they will introduce a regime based on violence. After this they unite their forces, and proceed to massacre, banish and despoil their opponents, and finally degenerate into a state of bestiality, after which they once more find a master and a despot." - Polybius, Rise of the Roman Republic

This says that populism gets tied in with the filthy rich, which is exactly what the US is experiencing.   Economic and moral suicide would be so set in people minds as something "good" that people would be offended by anything sane. The difference now is that unlimited debt can be foisted onto others.  Then there is our greatly expanded ability to wreck havoc when we seek revenge against others who were not responsible for the pains we intentionally inflicted on ourselves.

For me, the only question mark is what happens after the collapse.  The Greeks say it is a cycle that will simply repeat itself.  The Christians say that this is a necessary precursor to the Apocalypse, which precedes the return of Christ.  In either case, there is little reason to lament the inevitable.


Rummuser said...

Our two countries need to take hard look at our military expenditure. In your case also the Internal Security situation. That expenditure, cut down can resolve the deficit in short order in both countries. But, vested interests refuse to look at this very attractive option.

Inklings said...

I think the Chinese cursed us, because we "live in interesting times". (May you live in interesting times is supposedly a Chinese curse.)

Looney said...

@Rummuser, you aren't worried that after the Taliban defeat the US in Afghanistan, that they will turn south?

Certainly defense can always be cut, but the government's acknowledged, official deficit vastly exceeds the entire amount that we spend on defense. We probably spend more on welfare benefits for illegal aliens than for defense! >10 million illegals needing food, housing, education, medical, legal assistance, transportation, heating and electricity, pocket change, ... all provided by the government.

And this is just one of a dozen areas where we have gone completely mad!

Looney said...

@Inklings, I always have it in the back of my mind that Utah would be one of the better places to ride the storm out.

Delirious said...

The Book of Mormon also contains a warning that if the inhabitants of the land do not serve God, they will lose their freedom. The further our country moves away from God, the more freedoms we lose.

Rummuser said...

Looney, In the long term, the Taliban threat will disappear when Pakhtunistan is formed as it most certainly will. We will not be in as much danger from the Talibs as Pakistan will be who will act as the buffer between us. But these are speculations as quite how things will pan out post US withdrawl is at best Allah ka Fazal.

Looney said...

@Delirious, does the book of Mormon have any passages talking about people being a "slave" to vice?

Looney said...

@Rummuser, yes, I think you have a valid point. Although I should really sympathize with Pakistan if the Taliban turns on them.

Delirious said...

Although I didn't find the word "slave" used in this sense, I did find some that might fit the bill:
2 Nephi 1:13 "O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe."
2 Nephhi 1:23 "Awake, my sons; put on the armor of righteousness. Shake off the chains with which ye are bound, and come forth out of obscurity, and arise from the dust."
I'll come back with some more... lol

Delirious said...

Okay, I found a few more choice scriptures about slavery to sin. I hope I'm not inundating you with too many. lol I think I will split some of these up in to separate comments.

2 Nephi 2:27-29
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

Delirious said...

2 Nephi 4:28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.

Alma 12:6
And behold I say unto you all that this was a snare of the adversary, which he has laid to catch this people, that he might bring you into subjection unto him, that he might encircle you about with his chains, that he might chain you down to everlasting destruction, according to the power of his captivity.

Helaman 5:12
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

Delirious said...

Last one. :)

2 Nephi 28:20-23
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Max Coutinho said...

Hi Looney,

Polybius was so right. And it is amazing how his words remain true, not only in America but in most democratic countries.

"The Greeks say it is a cycle that will simply repeat itself."

The Greeks are right.

"The Christians say that this is a necessary precursor to the Apocalypse, which precedes the return of Christ"

This reminds me of what Shiites say about the Return of the Mahdi.

I do not agree with Rummy when he says that cut Defence expenses will solve the deficit; but let's assume it did: would it be wise, at this point, to cut defence expenses? Jihadists would love that. As it is, the sequester is already doing damages according to an American military-related site (if you wish I will look for it and send it to you).
And I agree with you when you say that the US must solve its debt problem, as soon as possible (and I am being a bit selfish here, as I need the US to thrive lol).


Looney said...

@Max, I had wondered if the "Mahdi" wasn't an Arabic corruption of "Messiah". It appears unlikely.

I expect the Mahdi to make an appearance before the US starts taking its debts seriously!

Max Coutinho said...


No, it isn't an Arabic corruption of the Messiah, you are right.
Mashiach means the "anointed one" and Mahdi means "the one that is guided in the right way" - but the sense is the similar, as both words were intended to refer to those chosen by God to Guide their respective People.

LOL LOL yeah, Iran thinks the same thing too.
Agreed, the US (but not only) need to take their debt seriously.

Have a great weekend, Looney.